Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I've been thinking about moving up to a .308 for a while, so far I've got some AK's and shotties, a rem 7400 .30-06 I never use and I'm dying to sell, etc. so, I went to the gun shop earlier today to see if they'd have anything I'd like. I looked at a few. The prices at this place aren't exactly great deals, but I handled a few rifles I'm seriously considering buying now.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2258/pbrds3.jpg

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firea...04&mid=FNM0012

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8628/ptr91yv1.jpg

http://www.ptr91.com/product_pages/ptr91f.html

From what I've heard, FN makes great guns, and this FN PBR "patrol bolt rifle" (not to be confused with "Pabst blue ribbon" :bear_tongue: ) is supposedly pretty accurate, I loved the feel of this thing, it was the perfect weight, not too light, constructed of some sort of synthetic with a thick rubber coating, very nicely contoured and textured. The action was reasonably smooth and the detachable mag is always a good feature. Its got a scope rail right on the thing too.

Then I asked the guy about the accuracy of various battle rifles (he was more than happy to hand me something more expensive) and he handed me a PTR-91. I think this one was 16" version, but I think they can get their hands on the 18" easily if need be.

I'm wondering what would be better in a SHTF situation, a decent quality HK91 clone capable of chucking a lot of lead pretty far and with decent accuracy, or a real nice bolt action that isn't made for just takin out deer at 150 yards.

My gut tells me "ACCURACY THROUGH VOLUME OF FIRE!" but I could also see where being able to reliably reach out and touch something at 500+ yards would come in handy. However, if I did get the HK91 and needed a decent bolt action rifle, I might have a good chance of finding someone with a few bolt actions (one of the "rifles are for hunting, so I only own bolt actions" types) who realizes that the AK might be a good idea if things start to get up close and personal, in which case I'd be willing to part with one of mine.

Prices in that particular shop were roughly $1,100 for the FN PBR in .308, and $1,400 for the PTR 91. If I go wit the bolt gun, I'd end up dumping another 2 or 3 hundred on a halfway decent scope. I'm thinking I might just be able to find a better deal, but I'm not sure where I can track down some dealers who will do business out of their houses and sell guns at cost + tip (if they can even do that anymore in NY?)

Eventually, I'd love to have both, and chances are I will. For now though, which should I go with?

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Do you live in the sort of place where you're likely or able to make a 500-yard shot? Do you envision a SHTF event that would allow you identify someone at 500 yards as friend or foe? Can you make an accurate 500-yard shot (not everyone can). I'd consider those factors first if you're basing your decision on long-range accuracy vs. volume of firepower. I've heard good things about both rifles, but I think I'd lean toward the PTR91 because I do like the ability to throw a lot of lead downfield fast if necessary. (Now that my aging geezer-vision is starting to interfere with my accuracy at distance, the ability to send lots of lead downrange faster seems more prudent.)

My .308s are an M1A and a Savage 10FP. I also have an old Spanish mauser in .308, but it's a piece of junk that I figure will make a decent bludgeon (got to have close-quarter combat covered, too :D). To be honest, though, I just based my decision on what I like to shoot.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I love the PTR's. Very well made! Some even claim they are superior quality to even the original HKs. That being said, the barrel, though heavy, is not chrome lined and many speculate it may be suseptible to rust in certain SHTF type scenario. Again, I love them and would love to have one myself, but I would probably research that a bit before purchasing it for SHTF purposes.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Saiga. (Yup, I know I'm a broken record... but I like good value - the perfect balance in quality and affordability)

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I shoot competition rifle in several disciplines, one of which is benchrest. We have monthly competitions at our local club, most of us shoot very specialized and expensive custom rifles but we have a stock class in which off-the-shelf rifles compete.

Just last month we had a group show up for the first time from a shooting club, the members of which decided to see what they could do in a real competition.

Several of the guys had $1000+ FN's in 308 with Swarovski scopes. The shooter that won the stock class by a large margin was shooting a $400 Savage bolt action rifle. I've been watching and running matches for years and the Savage has dominated stock class. We've got guys that come and shoot Dakota and Cooper rifles, costing well into the $thousands, and the Savages beat them all.

No stock rifle can shoot with my competition rifles but the cost-----

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I hear ya maddie, I hope I didn't come across as a tom berringer wannabe, but the reason I'm considering the bolt is because it might be a good idea to try and avoid large confrontations, at least generally speaking, and if I did need to put a hurting on a large group a safe distance away, I could do so one at a time, starting with whoever looks the most experienced or important, over the course of a few days, moving from place to place to spice it up a bit.

I mean, I'm not a veteran and I'm not some die-hard commando Blackwater mercenary type, I'm more of a daydreamer who loves to shoot and plan creatively for a crazy future, than anything else, but I still try to think realistically, for what its worth.

I appreciate the advice guys, I think I'll lean toward the HK91 clone, and maybe pick up a savage 110 or something with a good scope? Hows that sound TomD?

SLV, I like saigas, but the high cap mags for the .308 saiga aren't cheap and aren't readily available, I looked long and hard at some .308 Saigas and VEPR's at a gun shop last winter but decided against it, and just got more ammo and another AK. At some point, once I get my FFL's straightened out and get some property, I'd like to try and manufacture some AK experiments in various calibers using mostly brand new US parts. Either way, I'd still like a .308 saiga since they're tough guns, but right now I think I should try and go for the gold and then collect when I've got things squared away, know what I mean?

Goldfinger - I'll keep that in mind, but just to throw an idea out there, what if you modified a snap-cap to hold some desiccant silica behind cheesecloth or some other permeable material, and kept that chambered in the rifle until you're ready to use it, along with a trojan rubber banded to the muzzle? Granted that a little preventative maintenance might help keep it from rusting, and moisture could still enter through the gas tube... would that be worth the trouble or beneficial?

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Go with the FAL....or whatever they say that thing is, looks like a FAL.....and purchase IIIa helmet (see Rev's recent posts) to protect yerself from the guys trying the 500 yd. shots....

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I'd go with a Socom M1-A for firepower but that's personal taste. I currently have two AR variants, a flat top match rifle and a battle rifle. If you are looking for long range accuracy up to 1000 yards, the 260 is superior to a 308. Both have the same case but the 260 is necked down to 6.5 mm, a round that has far better long range abilities when shooting 140 grain bullets. You need a barrel twist of 1 in 8 to shoot the 140's.

Oh yeah, decent scope for a few hundred dollars? Most long range shooters, myself included, use the excellent Nightforce scopes, which are around $1,300. I have several Bausch and Loumb scopes which are very good. These scopes are currently sold as the Bushnell Elite 4200 series for in the $4-$5 hundred range.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

The bigger question is do you have fire control, for those that do a semi is an efective piece for those who dont its a good way to waste a lot of ammo a bolt action requires that you think about each and every shot

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

At 500+ yards I'm more interested in area targets than point targets, rifles with long legs have their uses if a group of badguys decides to try and settle in your area.

FAL's are not the most accurate .308 semi auto out there, but they're certainly more than good enough for a shot at a 500 yard area target. The thing about FAL's is a lot of reciprocating mass, like an AK. The trick with an FAL is to turn off your adjustable gas system for that critical shot. It turns it into a straight pull bolt action and no reciprocating mass. If you get an FAL DSA builds a good one but don't get one with a match chamber, not worth the occasional extraction problems.

Otherwise as WyldWil suggested you've got enough guns, if you don't have some armor buy some before you get another gun.

I still like my beastly Mosins for long range and AP isn't illegal for 7.62x54r in case you find some or want to roll your own. Many of those old milsurps will suprise you with their ability to hit distant targets, they were built for it. Not necessarily precision sharp shooters, but they are rifleman's rifles and very effective in volley fire. Just pick the right tool and tactics for the job.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Hmm, it depends on where you live.

I live in a suburb of NYC. In fact, the border of NYC is about 4 minutes away by car. Something like an mg 34/42, FG42, Thompson, MP5, or an Abrams tank might be suited to the zombie hordes I'd have to deal with.

In a less populated rural area where you know your neighbors well and expect to avoid rather than seek confrontation, a bolt action is fine. If you plan on culling the sheeple, then perhaps somethign automatic might suit you. If going the bolt action route, a springfield 1903, mauser 98, or mosin-nagant will do just fine. Except for the springfield, military bolt rifles are usually pretty cheap. Ammo isn't too dificult to find either..

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Now's not a very good time to be getting into the 308 game. Ammo is expensive. I'd stay with the '06 if you are going with a bolt gun.

Personally, I think the writing is on the wall RE the next AWB, therefore I'm not buying any bolt/sporting guns. Buy the semis now while you can, you'll have more time to grab a bolt turner later.

That PTR is probably as accurate as most of us can hold one anyway.(Tom D being an exception :tee:)

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Sounds good, I'll get the HK91 and pick up a decent bolt action at some point after. I was actually considering armor the day before I went to the gunshop...

ceramic plates IV with IIIA supporting, seems like a decent price but I'd like to know the thickness, because bulletproofme might have the same thing for a few bucks cheaper

IIIA vests on ebay

Ebay is flooded with cheap IIIA vests from china, anyone know if they're any good? Link

I won't like to find out how good or bad those chinese vests are, first-hand... :no_ma:

MICH helmet ~$500, lab tested IIIA

~$330 and up IIIA PASGT style

Just throwin this out there to think about.

Oh and Baldwin, you're not too far from me :tongue_ma: Wait til I'm off the island if you have any ideas about culling the sheeple, I don't want to be mistaken :s9:

Gonna head out to work, will check back in a few hours. Thanks for all the input thusfar guys :bear_w00t:

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Ceramic plates are made of glass. Think about it.

I wouldn't trust any Chinese knock offs with keeping the sunshine on the outside. It's poisonous if it gets on internals, you know!

Armor is like armaments in my book, I'd rather do without until I can afford something I can depend on than be packing around some junk that won't work. Except that you'll know that the arms won't work ahead of time. Finding out your armor is junk might leave you with a bad hair day.:shocked_ma:

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Really? I live in Nassau county. Make sure you aren't in the fetal position in front of Wal-Mart, clutching the book, The Secret, employing "positive thinking" as you expect the trucks to come any minute now....

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I wants me a one-shot gun with a TV camera just like that isrealiar sniper "Jubal" uses in Iraq!!! Over 120 American kills!




OYE, I could be mistaken!! He might be brit SAS or a merc from bushco's Zapata Engineering. Doubt seriously he is a raghead; they don't shoot,just spray and pray!

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I think we're missing a far more important question...

Do they come in pink? :D

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8677/halocinelh4.jpg

Tactical deluxe hello kitty bolt rifle, I don't got that kind of money though. But if I did, the matching ammo purse that comes with it is a deal maker!


Nassau county here too, maybe we'll go shootin sometime out in uniondale :wink: And I'll keep the wal-mart stuff in the back of my mind :D

Beef - you're right, I'll go with an american vest and plates. I'll try out bulletproofme.com when I decide to buy things I guess.

Hoot - I wonder if iraqi's like that juba sniper guy have internet access in iraq? It must be easy to afford, on account of all of the job opportunities in the war zone... :tongue_ma: Could just be an insurgent though. Either way, I won't rule out zionists either :smokin: Thankfully, thats over there, and not here, yet...

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Remington 700 Varmint Special, Sendero, or PSS; all w/H-S Precision stock is a proven starting point for an accuracy bolt-gun. Plan to pay as much for your scope and mounting system as you do for the rifle.

If you want a semi-auto that can compete with a bolt gun for accuracy, the AR platform is the one to go for. An AR-10 or AR-15 flat top with stainless match barrel will outperform most bolt-guns. A 20" barrel works fine, unless you are one of those who thinks he has to go 26" or longer to achieve max velocity. Max velocity and barrel life Do Not go hand-in-hand.

A .223 w/1:8 or 1:7 rifling will enable you to shoot up to 77gr bullets with extreme accuracy, (if your rifle is so tuned) and is a superb choice for most. A .308 will weigh quite a bit more (couple lbs) and have about the same level of usable accuracy. Nobody is making 1000 yd hits with regularity (in the field) using a .308. Nice thing about the AR-10 is rapidity of follow-up shots and not losing your stock-weld.

Accurate bolt guns also weigh a bunch. Most sport a 26" heavy varmint tube. Custom longrange bolt guns will have a .950 or heavier final diameter and might weigh 5lbs alone. Add all the custom enhancements; hang that 40 ounce NXS scope w/56mm objective and you are pushing 14lbs easily. That for a regularly performing .5moa rifle. Nice guns, but take a sherpa w/you to schlep your gear.


The critical event for a bolt rifle is the barrel. Is it designed to withstand a great volume of fire and maintain accuracy; or will erode/burn up if you ever have to fire a lot of rounds without regard to cooling?

Most bolt guns are not designed for that contingency. Most battlerifles are, if they have mil-spec barrels.

Nice to have the AR platform. Buy one complete rifle, then get another complete upper or two so you can configure with short barrel or for longrange match work. Takes 5 seconds to switch barrels, just don't get trapped into owning another chambering that requires another set of magazines because the ctg dimensions are markedly different. (The Alexander Arms 6.5 Grendel and 50 Beowulf come to mind.) A 6.8spc will use a standard AR-15 mag, as will a 458 Socom. An AR-10 is interchangeable with .243Win, .260Rem and even .22-250 family ctgs w/o necessitating special/dedicated magazines.

For longrange flexibility, and by this I mean general use with fast response for longrange targets of opportunity; about the best turret system on any tactical scope is the Leupold M-3 single turn dial which moves elevation 1moa/1" per click. The turrets are replaceable and come factory marked for .223, .308, .30-06, and .300Win Mag standard loads. Just turn your dial to 6 if shooting at 600yds, pretty easy if you've confirmed your zero at known distances. Super scopes, especially when fitted with a mil-dot or milling reticle. 1/4 moa click scopes are a sniper's specialty item. Very easy to get lost in all the dialing you may have to do at longrange. Also easy to forget to return your turret to your zero. Reducing the variables means less to keep track of.

AR 15 rifles in .223 only, very much dominate in Service Rifle competition. This means they shoot better at 600yds with the .308s and `06s. How much more do you expect of your rifle than delivering 10 shots in a 6" circle at 600yds, using open sights!~??? Some will point out, "MM, don't forget; competitors are using 80gr/90gr bullets singly loaded in the 600yd segment of the match." Very True, but pretty doubtful that any of those guys/gals would feel ill-prepared shooting 75/77gr match ammo if magazine functioning were paramount.


I would buy an AR-10 (T) from Armalite, or an Armalite or Rock River Arms AR-15 Service Rifle variant (A-4 receiver) if I wanted an all-around rifle capable of superb target and longrange accuracy. The A-4 flattop if I wanted to scope the AR-15, an A-2 with accuracy enhanced pinned rear sight if iron sights were more desirable. Maybe you go with a further tuned trigger? Maybe a custom barrel and free floating handguard? Lots of options. Lots of builders. Noveske, GA Precision, White Oak, Compass Engineering; it's a long list of great gunsmiths producing sub .5moa AR-15s.

The AR-15 wins out where weight and maximum ammunition carry are considered, but ONLY if 75/77gr match ammunition is used.

I would forget the bolt rifle until after I bought the AR. If you buy a match quality AR, you will gain nothing from a bolt rifle.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I'll agree with your post up to that statement. I've got a flat top AR and several bolt guns. My 2 best bolt guns are based on a Panda and a Viper action on carbon fiber stocks and have mostly Kreiger barrels, Jewell triggers, etc. Both will far out shoot any auto feeder ever made. I will fully admit that the increase in accuracy is academic for most of the real world and the real purpose of these rifles is competition. But there is something to be said about knowing that your rifle is capable of putting one in a 5 inch circle at 1000 yards.

Below 600 yard firing line.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Anybody like a Browning?

BAR or A-Bolt?

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Not very-----

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

I've heard nothing but horror stories from my friends regarding the M16 in the marines/army coming back from iraq/afghanistan. I'm not so quick to run out and buy one of these, given their reputation. Granted that I could potentially witness 50 replies about how "my AR has never jammed" or "if your AR jams you're stupid", I figured I'd just be blunt and say no thanks to the AR. I did find your post informative though, MM, and I'll keep it in mind if anyone drops one too nice for me to pass over :D Please don't take it personally.

Anyway I'd rather try out an MBR. The worst that can happen is I end up stuck with a pretty good rifle. If I decide I don't like it, I could always sell it. I have a hunch that when SHTF theres going to be plenty of M16s/AR15s in circulation...

Anyone know if there are any match barrels for the HK91 available? How about better triggers?

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

My friend had an A-Bolt in .308, I only got to use it once, after I had a shot with it, he took a shot with it, and the scope's internal lense snapped out of place somehow, so everything ended up blurry beyond recognition :confused_ma: It was a very handsome rifle though, and pretty accurate, he used to pick off the legs on my targets when we'd go shoot :rant: :D

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

My cousin had a brand new M1A jam up and require factory repair the third time he shot it. It's anecdotal, but still not a good picture of quality for the gun.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

PTR makes a "match" model, or at least they did. The regular ones shoot REEL NIICE.

Triggers on A-Bolts stink. The best way to fix 'em? Sell it and buy a Rem 700. I know the Savages are good rifles, but it's kinda like riding a moped...:wink:

Yeah, Springfield lets the occasional junk M1A slip through QC, but their warantee is flawless. Better to have the one flawed rifle than the entire flawed system. :aetsch:

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Most of the internal parts on an AR-15 interchange with the AR-10.

I guess we could consider a Tubb 2000 in 6xc as a superb bolt battle rifle? Where are you going to get resupply for your Panda or Stolle? A custom bolt rifle is not a snipers weapon, not typically. A Rem model 700 can be extensively modified to become one, and even a factory VS or Sendero is superbly accurate. Just wondering Tom, have you ever fired your Panda 200 times in 30 minutes? Does it hold up? Will your barrel still group?

Very doubtful that any .308 is going to group into 5" at 1000 yds. Takes a magnum ctg or no wind conditions and a concrete rest to even come close. The Palma guys shoot at 1000yds, they use 31" barrels to get the velocity they must have from 155 grain bullets. I'll wager you that if you are shooting a magnum rifle at mid or max velocities, your barrel is measurably erroded at 600+ rds fired. If you have spent days at the bench, looking for your "sweet spot" load, testing powders, primers, several bullets; then your barrel is gone very quick.

No bolt gun, other than some surplus antique, is a battle rifle. The bolt might serve you well if you have the luxury of choosing your shots etc, but it is a specialized weapon.

Consider that 6mms like 243 6xc etc, and 260Rem, 284Win etc all have short-lived accuracy (maybe 1500 rds, less if shooting competitively) due to barrel burning under "normal" competition or field use conditions. A .308 will last 5k or more rounds, maybe up to 10K. Lower velocity, a design that is not overbore, and less powder give it longer lived accuracy potential.


When the member who brings up Afghan & Iraq failures needs to consider is, unless he plans on "bugging out to the painted desert or some other harsh clime, likely he can keep his rifle in better operating condition.

I think it is pretty dicey to expect that any "off the rack" rifle will do what you expect of it before you prove to yourself that it will.

One of the finest field bolt rifles ever made is the Sako TRG 22/42. Superb stock, best field adjustable trigger in existence, superb accessorization potential. Some gripe about the plastic trigger housing. There is no pleasing everyone, but no other bolt rifle has an inside the trigger guard safety a' la Garand/M14; the safety is another superb feature.

There is no bolt rifle that has a 20rd magazine capacity, self-loading battle rifles do; 30rd is the norm for the AR-15.

The AR platform is proven more versatile and as accurate as any bolt rifle under field conditions; this means a non-benchrested firing position. I can further state that a self-loader can perform more roles than a bolt rifle. A lever-action is superior to a bolt rifle in fast reactive shooting. In fact, a .44 magnum lever rifle makes a helluva assault rifle within 100 yds with the right sights.

It is an interesting topic. I think you can take any mil-spec (high quality) AR lower receiver and mate it with a top-line upper receiver with custom barrel and, if you know how to keep the bolt well lubed, have a very dependable rifle, more dependable than any bolt rifle in production. After all, who carries a spare firing pin and extractor for their bolt gun? Do you have a special tool to enable you to compress the pin spring and extract the parts from your bolt? Carry one with you? Sure you do. Got that spare floorplate, too?

If you are going to have to rely on a rifle, it'd better be able to Do It All. Mel Tappan covers this topic in Survival Guns very concisely. You can hunt with a battle rifle, but you can't battle with a bolt action. Forget Col. Cooper's Scout Rifle concept, having owned a Steyr, they are nice rifles, but my model 700s all shot more accurately than my pro hunter.

A flat topped AR 10 or 15 enables use of a variety of scopes and accessories.like backup iron sights, risers, extensions, night vision devices. A long picatinny railed forend adds versatility. The ACOG scopes offer a lot of flexibility for fast response, both eyes open, shooting. Dot and holographic sights too are very fast close in. Quick detach lever-release mounts mean you can switch scopes and not lose your zero.

Match ammunition will do dual-duty and kill big game very readily, the bullet jackets on Sierra and Hornady match bullets are Very Thick. Handload your own ammunition if you want extra flexibility and performance. 10 or 20 Grand Slam bullets of 180gr will handle anything alive, if you do your part. Sometimes knowing when NOT to shoot is the better part of valor.


Happy 4th of July to all on the board. Isn't it wonderfuld to be able to discuss riflery and be able to take action and buy/build those we want to own!

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

You too MoneyMatters, and everyone else :D At least we still have that, for now.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

You could always turn the question around. Given your location, situation, yada, yada...If you had to go up against an armed adversary, which would you rather they be armed with?

This may give you a clue as to what you need.

Just a thought.

Re: Battle rifle or bolt action?
 

Bap, I figure that Iraq is one of the most "wired" places on earth by now. Did you know that those IED's are set off by cell phone? Hate to bring-up and disrupt your thread with that one shot Jubal ringer, but this endless false flag sheeit still has me "mad as hell" and I will be until the day they start shoveling dirt in my face.

Enjoy your 4th! I am going to start on makeing an old Enfield serviceable again today. I picked it up with a rusted broken stock CVA Renagade for $40 for the pair at a yard sale a couple of weeks back. The CVA still needs a little dremel work and paint on the repair and new key, and then the barrel slugged and honed. The Enfield needs a front sight, magazine, and butt plate. I already JBed some pitting in the chamber. Will lop off about 4" of barrel to get rid of much the cleaning rod wear to the bore and put on a Rem 742 ramp and blade. Will crown and hone the barrel and then parkerize the bolt barrel and action. Thinking about cobbleing a blind magazine. Have an old pad somewhere for the stock. These are going "underground" somewhere so they don't need be fancy! Just wish these "senior moments" wouldn't keep me from remembering what happenned to that case of Rusky SKS's I got back in 93.